Just in case anyone thinks I'm unfairly maligning old, stale designers, today's comic was actually meant to follow this one. Then Bierut had to go and redesign Guitar Hero and throw my shit off track, but here we are again.
It's been a while since anyone's accused me of "not getting it," but I can admit that last week's strip about DriftCreate went over about as well as ordering a hamburger at a Hindu wedding (try it sometime). The only thing I really want to say here is: let's not confuse searching for a punch-line with not getting a thing. Believe me, I get the thing. I do. But the thing has a bit of a dark side to it, even though it may not be immediately apparent. Anyone who reasonably thinks that $200 is a good price for a logo design is either a.) Playing Graphic Designer the way children play House, because they obviously aren't running a full-time business, or b.) a part of the fabric of everything that is wrong with our industry.
I do not think those guys fall into the "B" category, for the record. And the flip-side of "A" is that, by-and-large, most designers running full-time businesses don't want to work with clients who only want to pay $200 for a company logo. Most of those clients don't respect what we do as a profession. So, in a way, doing that kind of work quickly and then hitting the open road may be the perfect way to deal with them. If you've moved on to a new city or town, you certainly won't be around to deal with them next week when they want a website for $50.
The very specific point where the thing becomes dark is in the offhand situation where a small, local designer would lose a paying job that he or she made a reasonable bid on because someone showed up and offered to do it for way, way less.
That being said, I present you with the work of the very two guys who totally get the thing, in response to the previous comic:
Well played, Drift. Cheers.
I am still so disappointed that you used your powerful platform to cut down two young designers who have found a very creative way to gain experience and exposure. Although you may not respect them, many respected local designers do and were happy to work with them or offer knowledge and advice.
Nate, your negativity is really a shame.
Nate, I feel that comic strips are the proper device to air concerns in a fun, less-serious way. Comic = humor. Too much drama in the LBC! After all, we can't pat everyone on the back all the time.
When I first started to get into design, I kept getting knock-backs from design agencies, recruitment agencies, everyone, because they wouldn't look at you unless you had at least 2 years professional experience. Which is a bit of a catch 22. I did whatever I could to get a design job. I would design ads for my families businesses, Christmas cards, anything. I would also do this for free as the experience was all I needed. I know how tough it can be to get that first job, so I say kudos for the guys for getting out there.
I think that Nate is also clued-up enough to know that this is the case. As he said, a punch line is a punch line.
I love what the drifting creatives are doing, and it was great to meet them for the two minutes Nate and I spoke with them outside of Ann Willoughby's office. I understand that experience can be difficult to get without having it first, and it's common to do design work for less money without experience (who hasn't?), but charging way less than market rate (and way less than the market rate with even your experience) doesn't do anybody in this profession any good in the long run.
Hmmmm…
Thinking…
Hmmmm…
Okay.
I've met these guys and they are genuinely cool cats. They are also very young and very inexperienced. I remember being in those shoes and I was and still am completely imperfect as a creative professional, and a person. Man if we all told the stories of the $100 logos we ALL did early in our student & pro careers, we'd ALL OF US be flame-fodder. That being the preface to my comments…
I get the point of having the punchline and it's absolutely correct that passing out pats on the back is often trite and empty glad-handing. I also have the same view that this may be ultimately detrimental in the long-term to the industry on the whole and their ability to command more proper rates in the future by undercutting the standards with far too low a rate. Instead of package deal pricing, how about setting an acceptable rate and working hourly for the studios they visit on their travels. They would gain no less acceptance or no less work to do, and would perhaps be bolstering the value of their (and our) work, rather than being under-priced & under-valued.
Again, I get the point of having the punchline. My only question would be this:
In meeting these gents face-to-face, did you say any of this to them directly? Did you inform them that they would be lampooned in this way? This isn't a gossip rag or Perez Hilton. 36point carries some major weight nationally now. The punchline in this case isn't faceless, it's someone you met directly and probably had a pleasurable convo with. I'm not saying don't have your view. I even agree with it. Hey, I'm the biggest sarcastic, shit-talking, loud-mouth I know, and I love a good punchline. But this may have been a chance to instruct and teach. Passing on the punchline and talking to them directly to help them gain understanding and move forward in better standing. This all may have happened. I'm just asking… did it happen, before the strip dropped?
I guess it's just a personal call on deciding when to pass on the comedy and face it down as a more serious editorial issue. This would have been a great public opinion story/post, to let heads chime in and give their takes on it.
Just my humble opinion. Oh, and you guys know me… I totally get the punchline. Once again, I actually happen to agree with the commentary being shown. But we all have different approaches to the dialog about such issues.
Okay well, if Steve's going to get up in here, I guess I'll shuffle back in to pay respect.
No, when we met with the guys from Drift, it was in a hallway. We were finishing up our interview with Ann Willoughby and they were just arriving. They were explaining to Ann what it is they do and she seemed to think it was great. She did LOLZ when they said how they pay for gas.
Then she brought us all gifts in the form of Willobags, and one of the Drift dudes (the skinny one? Am I a dick for saying that?) let me have the green bag, which I picked for my wife. This single, gracious act haunts me now, because it proves they are good dudes.
We chatted a bit, they said they'd been through Omaha and hung out with Adam, Steve, and local designer/he-man Eric Downs. I asked if they'd then also hung out with Princess Lasertron (see above) and they said no, but that she is pretty and pretty great. (Hopefully passing along that warm fuzzy will get me back on Meg's good side)
That was basically it. As someone who has traveled the country to talk to famous and inspiring designers (for years now), I completely understand what they are doing. Anyone who thinks I don't probably just doesn't know that much about me, and that's okay. But driving home from KC that night we got to talking and I got to thinking about the one, specific, singular downside to their excursions — and let's be honest, I have no idea if that scenario has ever even played out — and wrote Conrad's reaction to that into a strip.
Now, keep in mind, the comic immediately before that features a kidnapped Michael Bierut living in the bottom of a well putting logos into the baskets of a mad man. I have implied that Chip Kidd can't write and pees himself, and that Debbie Millman is 100 years old (none true, to my knowledge).
And the guys, to their credit, made BULL SEAMAN BEER, which is about the fucking coolest way to respond on the face of the planet.
The comic is my way to editorialize on the present, past, and future of the industry. I don't ask everyone to agree with what I'm saying, certainly. I don't agree with half of it. Let's face it, Conrad's kind of a dick. (Later we can discuss whether writing a Dick makes a writer a dick—that one I don't have an answer for.)
In comedy, I am quite certain that if you see a joke coming ahead of time it will never be funny when it gets there for real, so no, they didn't get any advanced warning. Nobody sees these strips before the go out but me. They took it like champs, though, and will live to fight another day.
Two final thoughts:
If you're doing something for exposure that enough people know about to have some of them actively dislike it, you are doing something right.
That exposure will be worth exactly $0, all of the time.
Yeah, their response was rather pimp, classy (as classy as "Bull Seamen" could be) and showed they have a few marbles in the bag and a bit of talent & skill… all of which should be grounds for fair and appropriate compensation on future projects. You listening, my cool 'Drift' dudeskies? There are definite ways to present yourselves as an economical advantage, still all the while supporting industry-standard norms for compensation.
To that end, I suppose all points are covered and all are living to fight another day. The added bonus is opening a dialog on the issue of concern and getting the communication rolling. May not be a bad idea to revisit in the future as a blog post, because the point you are actually addressing holds more than its share of water. I can't front on that.
Damn, I love to discuss, communicate & trip the verbal "light fantastic"! I—for one—appreciate for the '36point' platform to do so. Thanks.
Good conversation!
I fee someone here needs to give a round of applause to Nate. A person or group can only get so far walking on egg shells being sure nothing to offend anyone for fear of social or professional backlash. Sometimes the best conversations are triggered by a comment (or in this case comic) that some may find offensive or rude. It ups the emotional ante and fuels the conversation; and as long as the conversation is being held by respectful professionals it can be kept civil. I guess in a nut shell... if you want to make an impact... push the collective button and let the backlash of comments and subsequent conversation come in.
So good for you Nate... in stead of creating an "all is rosy" comic for fear of upsetting some people... you said what you really felt at the time you felt it. As a result the 36 Point designer audience has gotten a more in depth and thought provoking conversation to absorb and reflect upon.
If you had "played nice" and just commented on how cool these guys were you probably would have gotten maybe one comment echoing the glad-handing of the comic. So thanks Nate for having the balls to be the devil's advocate on this issue.
Bravo Nate. Keep'em coming!
WOW! I should really proof read what I write for typos before I submit! ;)
fee = FEEL
sure nothing to = sure NOT to
Few points to add to this conversation:
1. Martin and Gavin went to Omaha because I suggested they do. I've developed a great friendship with a handful of the Omaha creative people and now consider it a second home in a way. However, things like this screw with your city's brand. Welcoming arms seemed to start stabbing backs. Just how it looked.
2. If you're good enough of a designer, you shouldn't worry what a young designer is doing. There is absolutely no way that we as "veteran" designers could teach all young designers exactly how to act. Holding two of them over the fire for the sake of teaching others isn't a very professional way to make a point.
3. Cartoons, although playful at first glance, can really piss someone off. I applaud your honesty but still disagree with it. To each his own, I guess.?
- - -
See you soon Omaha.
You can check out our response here.
http://www.driftingcreatives.com/transparency/
I went to school with these guys, and am still in school I see them as inspiration for potential designers to look up to and ask questions about their experiences in the design world as they travelled the country. I have great respect for them, they are a good example of having some balls and getting out on their own: developing connections in the design world, meeting new people and gaining experience, there is nothing negative about that! In fact they explain themselves very clearly here NATE: http://www.driftingcreatives.com/transparency/
JUST TO REINFORCE IT!
I look up to them, and I am behind them 100%!
I understand the idea that the original comic strip was trying to make a punchline, albeit on a topic sensitive to its creator. However, I feel like an offensive against individual designers appears fairly...like chest beating in an attempt to rid of a perceived threat. The Drifting Creatives, however underpaid, are hardly a threat when considering the REALLY BIG issue at hand, which is: why clients don't value the work. Have you seen http://www.crowdspring.com/ ?? Sites like this would probably give any professional designer a creeping feeling. Rampant spec work disguised as a design 'competition'. It's design as a commodity, not as a service. But really, why should clients pay us for what we do? It's easy and fun to make cool graphics in photoshop, right? We ALL need to be able to answer that question and educate clients if we value our living as designers. Perhaps a comic strip about that would be more valuable.
Cara, Nate's been doing 2 to 3 of these a week for quite a while, he actually has covered spec work a few times, including this one from January.
That's, again, a pretty awesome response from Drift over there. I'm a little sad that it had to end in a burn, as the rest of it was well thought out and genuine. I haven't ended any of my posts with "oh yeah and those dudes are totally dicks." Which, AGAIN, I DO NOT think is the case. I'm really glad those guys put that information up there (and see? charts! They are designers!), as that's the kind of thing that straightens this shit out.
I will say that Roby's maligning the amazing designers of Omaha as a bunch of backstabbers because of me is a bullshit thing to do, especially since the specific designers you are talking about are an extremely nice, talented, smart, and welcoming bunch.
I'd like to thank Anne (in the comments of the other post) for bringing some positivity to the conversation, and, Cara, I sort of touched on spec work, starting here (it goes on for a few) and again in this comic, in different ways. Not specifically crowdsourcing websites yet, but who knows what next week will bring.
Donovan - unfortunately, this comic is the first bit of content I have seen from this site in part from its discussion. First impressions are sometimes the lasting impressions. I'm glad the topic has been discussed before.
I find it sad that there are people so obviously misinformed, so out of touch, or just simply clueless that there are people more creative than themselves. Your pathetically gross and disgusting comic, thrown into your public forum, of two young and aspiring entrepreneurs should give all of your readers a pause. Are you that insecure? Does this comic mark the breadth of your creative thought? Are you so naive about the market place for employment or current economics? Are you so restricted in your little mind that you cannot see the vision of what these two young men are doing? Do you truly believe that the road they are on is, or has been an easy one? or is it that you never had the balls to step up and are so desperately envious?
Take however much YOU bill per hour x the hours wasted drawing your vulgar cartoon and spewing your hate... and donate that amount to Drifting Creatives. Both time and money better spent.
"as long as the conversation is being held by respectful professionals it can be kept civil"
... so much for that theory. Some of you need to have a beer and calm down.
I made this for Drift, but Brian I think you need it more. Can I hug you?
http://www.36point.com/articles/2009/09/new-wallpaper-hobo-designers-f.html
Just thought i would drop in an i agree with Nate's concerns and I have thought this for a while.